Did Matthew and Luke plagiarize Mark?

[writerguy]

Ok, first off the claim that Mark is a source document for Matthew or Luke does not undermine its ability to convey the message of the gospels, that God loves us.

And there, indeed, you have the crux of the matter. Whether Matthew and Luke borrowed from Mark, or Mark was Peter's memoirs, or Luke got the inside scoop from the Apostle Paul -- or all three of 'em were dictated by a voice from a heavenly cloud. Whatever -- they tell us that God's love and grace came among us in Christ Jesus. They tell us that God desires us to open our lives to his presence and let him transform us and the entire world.

Ah, you just gotta love it!

(Bet some of you didn't think old writerguy had such a fundy streak still in him, did ya?? )

[UMSonOfMan7]

Ok, first off the claim that Mark is a source document for Matthew or Luke does not undermine its ability to convey the message of the gospels, that God loves us.

And there, indeed, you have the crux of the matter. Whether Matthew and Luke borrowed from Mark, or Mark was Peter's memoirs, or Luke got the inside scoop from the Apostle Paul -- or all three of 'em were dictated by a voice from a heavenly cloud. Whatever -- they tell us that God's love and grace came among us in Christ Jesus. They tell us that God desires us to open our lives to his presence and let him transform us and the entire world.

Ah, you just gotta love it!

Absolutely.

[Aria]

Preach it brother yahwist! Your initiation into the Catholic Conspiracy (TM) is now complete. Can I get an Amen?!

Amen!

[m0dified]

Hmm.... the source m0dified quotes as supporting UM is from the University of Melbourne's site. The source m0dified quotes as opposing UM is from geocities. Makes you wonder.

If you read what I wrote you will see that it is originally from EWTN, not a geocities site.

Thanks for contributing.

[m0dified]

Well, m0dified, I honestly think your attitude is so incredibly arrogant and nasty in this post that you truly owe UM an apology.

I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but if you are, you should be glad that I am standing up for the Gospel, because I am standing up for Chrisitians....EDIT

[m0dified]

Your paranoia is astounding.

EDIT

Shall I dig up your little slip where you told Brendan that some of the "greatest evils come from the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] institution?"

Do you deny saying this?

"If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household! Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known." - Matthew 10:25-26

[kiwimac]

M0dified,

Do you deny then the Inquisition? Do you deny the persecution of Protestants? Do you deny what happened to the Waldenses, the Huegenots, the Lutherans? What is your take on Pope St Pius X who declared democracy to be dangerous? What about pedophile priests?

Enquiring minds would like to know

Kiwimac

[m0dified]

M0dified,

Do you deny then the Inquisition? Do you deny the persecution of Protestants? Do you deny what happened to the Waldenses, the Huegenots, the Lutherans? What is your take on Pope St Pius X who declared democracy to be dangerous? What about pedophile priests?

Enquiring minds would like to know

Kiwimac

UMSonofMan7-

Here is your perfect chance to prove me wrong when I said that you are selective in your "off topic" warnings. Tell him that this drivel is off-topic and has nothing to do with the thread.

[writerguy]

I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but if you are, you should be glad that I am standing up for the Gospel, because I am standing up for Chrisitians....EDIT

As a matter of fact, I am a Christian.

When you say you are "standing up for the Gospel," that's the part with which I take issue. You are, in my opinion, using this discussion simply to belittle those who disagree with [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] tradition concerning the gospel, and you, still in my opinion, doing so with a great deal of arrogance.

And I still believe you owe UM an apology, but of course, that's up to you to decide and between you and UM.

My apologies if that's further off-topic.

[Icebrc]

OFF TOPIC! (I was going to do this before I saw the post ) I not only want to stop the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] arguing but I'd like to see this move back towards the topic of the [acronym="Opening Post"]OP[/acronym] before I am forced to split this thread and remove the bickering.

[wesley paul]

I think Umsonofman7's problem with similiarity issues is that it looks in a manner that is duplicate or fake to produce scripture. Not so,

Luke and Matthew wrote the divineword through the spirit, so the testimony of Mark is valid.. If if Mark may have needed a few tips from Luke..



I'm am sad that you are skeptic but Glad you seek God.. Did you perhaps think that you dig too deep um?

[wesley paul]

M0dified,

Do you deny then the Inquisition? Do you deny the persecution of Protestants? Do you deny what happened to the Waldenses, the Huegenots, the Lutherans? What is your take on Pope St Pius X who declared democracy to be dangerous? What about pedophile priests?

Enquiring minds would like to know

Kiwimac

UMSonofMan7-

Here is your perfect chance to prove me wrong when I said that you are selective in your "off topic" warnings. Tell him that this drivel is off-topic and has nothing to do with the thread.

Rockin signature M0dified!... It fit's with those who seek God not. But do not shoot from the hip and promote the animosity..Let's kill it. You and UM best kiss and make up.

But I have a much much more fitting one for non-believers that will be in my sig later..

Oh [acronym="By The Way"]BTW[/acronym] m0dified, Nice to meet you since this being my first exhange of words with you... I respect Catholicism and do no pass judgement on anyone but what is up with your church on the scandals?

and a question. Do not call anyone on earth father, for you only have one father and he is in heaven.

Why do Catholics call their "mentor's" "Father" like "Father, I confess I have sinned what must I do?"

Why disdain that command and call Bishops "Father" when there is one in Heaven!

[Icebrc]

M0dified,

Do you deny then the Inquisition? Do you deny the persecution of Protestants? Do you deny what happened to the Waldenses, the Huegenots, the Lutherans? What is your take on Pope St Pius X who declared democracy to be dangerous? What about pedophile priests?

Enquiring minds would like to know

Kiwimac

UMSonofMan7-

Here is your perfect chance to prove me wrong when I said that you are selective in your "off topic" warnings. Tell him that this drivel is off-topic and has nothing to do with the thread.

Rockin signature M0dified!... It fit's with those who seek God not. But do not shoot from the hip and promote the animosity..Let's kill it. You and UM best kiss and make up.

But I have a much much more fitting one for non-believers that will be in my sig later..

Oh [acronym="By The Way"]BTW[/acronym] m0dified, Nice to meet you since this being my first exhange of words with you... I respect Catholicism and do no pass judgement on anyone but what is up with your church on the scandals?

and a question. Do not call anyone on earth father, for you only have one father and he is in heaven.

Why do Catholics call their "mentor's" "Father" like "Father, I confess I have sinned what must I do?"

Why disdain that command and call Bishops "Father" when there is one in Heaven!

Admin note: I respect your questions but please take them to another thread. Thank you.

[wesley paul]

Admin note: I respect your questions but please take them to another thread. Thank you.

Why? This is the discussion section of the forum.

Oh, do you want me to stay out of this thread so it doesn't intefere with the " theologizing?"..

[Basil_oz]

Why? This is the discussion section of the forum.

Oh, do you want me to stay out of this thread so it doesn't intefere with the " theologizing?"..

No... it is off-topic from the original post. But the question you asked is worthy of its own thread.

I know that I'd like to see it posed and discussion given.

[m0dified]

Why? This is the discussion section of the forum.

Oh, do you want me to stay out of this thread so it doesn't intefere with the " theologizing?"..

No... it is off-topic from the original post. But the question you asked is worthy of its own thread.

I know that I'd like to see it posed and discussion given.

Really? I thought you were "sick to death" of [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] threads?

Or is it only sick of positive messages about the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym]? Negative ones are ok for your health?

[Basil_oz]

Why? This is the discussion section of the forum.

Oh, do you want me to stay out of this thread so it doesn't intefere with the " theologizing?"..

No... it is off-topic from the original post. But the question you asked is worthy of its own thread.

I know that I'd like to see it posed and discussion given.

Really? I thought you were "sick to death" of [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] threads?
Or is it only sick of positive messages about the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym]? Negative ones are ok for your health?

Thank you for the link to my comment. And when you click it you will see that I never said I was "sick to death of [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] threads"... I said I was "sick to death of the constant plug of the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym]".

I appreciate the direct link to it. It allows everyone to see what was actually said, and not just how you seem to have construed it.

In regard to my comment to battlehelmet, it was quite sincere. I am interested in why different denominations hold different positions... and the reasoning on why priests are called father in the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] is one I'd like to hear an explanation on.

I have learnt a lot about the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] and some of it's theology from people such as Carly, and even yourself m0d... all of which I have appreciated. It has helped me in understanding where Christians who are part of the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] communion are coming from... which, all told, increases my own appreciation of the wider body of Christ.

That doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with all stances of the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym], and I will debate issues that are of interest to me (that is the nature of a board such as this)... but because I debate doesn't mean I don't appreciate.

But this is way off topic. My apologises to UM. Everyone, back on the train track!

[UMSonOfMan7]

[off-topic post to respond to some accusations]

Your paranoia is astounding.

EDIT

Shall I dig up your little slip where you told Brendan that some of the "greatest evils come from the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] institution?"

Do you deny saying this?

"If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household! Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known." - Matthew 10:25-26

I have been out of town for nearly the past week now and so I have not had the opportunity to respond to this. I am still out of town, but even though I made it clear before I left that I was going out of town, it has been brought to my attention that my delay in responding to this statement is perpetuating the belief that it and the edited out slight are accurate.

m0d, your charge that I am anti-catholic is false, ridiculous, and has no place in this discussion. If you want to discuss my personal beliefs, I have repeatedly explained to you what the appropriate places for doing that are. The middle of a discussion on the source of a few of the gospels is not the place. Please stick to the content.

A while back, I made the statement, "The [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] is responsible for some of the greatest evils in the world." I take ownership of this statement. If you want to debate whether or not it is an accurate statement, then you are welcome to take up kiwimac's request for a thread on this issue. This thread is not the place for that.

Your accusation that this makes me anti-Catholicism, however, is absurd. Every large institution is responsible for its evils. The U.S. government is also responsible for some of the greatest evils in the world, as is ancient Rome, giant global international conglomerates of corporations, etc. A simple fact of any institution is that it is man-made and run by men and men do bad things sometimes. There is not an institution in the world that has not done some bad things. The biggest institutions--including the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym], the U.S. government, and others--are responsible for some of the greatest of those bad things that have been done. Even my own United Methodist Church is an institution and is not immune to this; it too has been responsible for perpetuating certain terrible things in this world. The only reason why I do not list the [acronym="United Methodist Church"]UMC[/acronym] with the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] as responsible for some of the greatest evils of the world is because the [acronym="United Methodist Church"]UMC[/acronym] isn't a big enough institution for its wrongs to have ranked that high. If it were only as big as the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym], then its wrongs would be much greater as well.

So, no, I am not anti-Catholic, and I am not a member of some ridiculous Catholic Conspiracy; neither am I going to be intimidated into silence about the wrongs the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] has committed. I will neither be intimidated into silence about any other wrongs that I speak out against in the [acronym="Social Justice"]SJ[/acronym] forum--and that includes the wrongs committed by the very organizations that I am a member of and support (such as the country that I live in and love or the denomination that I am a member of and am dedicated to).

All this focus on "some of the greatest evils of the world" however detracts from some of the greatest goods in the world that are also done by the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym], the U.S. government, and insititutions in general. Institutions have inherent evils within them due to what they are--man-made organizations of imperfect human beings; however, institutions also organize great numbers of human beings in such a way as to enable them to combine their efforts, pool their resources, and address great needs in far more effective and efficient ways than could be done by individual human beings all working independently. I do not think that institutions are all thoroughly bad, but the potential for bad things to be done by an institution exists in every institution and, at least with respect to every large institution, the humans that make them up have failed to prevent certain terrible things from happening in or through every single large institution (and many, many of the small ones) that they have created. If we don't admit that, deal with it, and learn from it, the only future that will await us is a repeat of the terrible things in our past built on top of those past terrible things.


[/off-topic post to respond to some accusations]
(future comments on these issues need to either be taken to a new thread for further discussion of the issues or PMed to me or the respective person if the comments are of a personal nature rather than a discussion of content; I will now return to my vacation and will not be able--or at least, not willing to sacrifice time with my family, friends, and loved ones--to respond to this or any other thread again before I return home on Saturday night)

[m0dified]

Have a good rest of your vacation UM.

[m0dified]

Here is some historical evidence for Matthew being first:

St. Irenaeus (d. A.D. 200) "Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also handed down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, set down in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord who reclined at His bosom, also published a Gospel, while he was residing at Ephesus in Asia" (Against Heresies 3.1; A.D. 180-199).

Notice that St. Irenaeus tells us that Matthew was first written in HEBREW, not Greek. I think this is an important point to consider.

[UMSonOfMan7]

Here is some historical evidence for Matthew being first:

St. Irenaeus (d. A.D. 200) "Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also handed down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, set down in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord who reclined at His bosom, also published a Gospel, while he was residing at Ephesus in Asia" (Against Heresies 3.1; A.D. 180-199).

Notice that St. Irenaeus tells us that Matthew was first written in HEBREW, not Greek. I think this is an important point to consider.

Yes, and that testimony is a century or more after the fact; in other words, there is no direct line from the testimony to an actual experience with the facts. In this thread, I discuss that in more detail, including this post where I mention what you just said, this post where I give some analysis of it, and this post where I briefly talk about whether or not Matthew was originally written in Hebrew.

[m0dified]

Here is some historical evidence for Matthew being first:

St. Irenaeus (d. A.D. 200) "Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also handed down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, set down in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord who reclined at His bosom, also published a Gospel, while he was residing at Ephesus in Asia" (Against Heresies 3.1; A.D. 180-199).

Notice that St. Irenaeus tells us that Matthew was first written in HEBREW, not Greek. I think this is an important point to consider.

Yes, and that testimony is a century or more after the fact; in other words, there is no direct line from the testimony to an actual experience with the facts. In this thread, I discuss that in more detail, including this post where I mention what you just said, this post where I give some analysis of it, and this post where I briefly talk about whether or not Matthew was originally written in Hebrew.

Personally I tend to put more weight on the testimony of someone 100 years removed from the writings (when the originals still existed) than someone speculating 2000 years later.

[HerFlamingLiberal]

In response to [acronym="Opening Post"]OP[/acronym], yes. Of course they did. But it wasn't bad plagarizing. It was using their sources well. They of course copyed from Q and stuff like the Gospel of Mary as well. No biggie.

[m0dified]

In response to [acronym="Opening Post"]OP[/acronym], yes. Of course they did. But it wasn't bad plagarizing. It was using their sources well. They of course copyed from Q and stuff like the Gospel of Mary as well. No biggie.

That is one theory, not fact.

[HerFlamingLiberal]

In response to [acronym="Opening Post"]OP[/acronym], yes. Of course they did. But it wasn't bad plagarizing. It was using their sources well. They of course copyed from Q and stuff like the Gospel of Mary as well. No biggie.

That is one theory, not fact.

In your opinion.

Have you read the Gospel of Mary of late? Entire sections are quoted in Matthew and Luke.