Catholic same-sex marriage rite

[UMSonOfMan7]

Of course not. As they say in my lovely new home, total rubbish.

Do you have anything to refute the evidence that has been presented?

[m0dified]

Of course not. As they say in my lovely new home, total rubbish.

Do you have anything to refute the evidence that has been presented?

What evidence? People can write anything on the Net. I'd love to see some proof that homosexual unions were an official rite of the Roman Catholic Church...not some break-away liberal imitation church...show me the real Church, loyal to the real Pope, having these unions, and I will eat my words.

[HerFlamingLiberal]

I hear you there. I'll only get to go if I get one of those NICE package plans.

As for the professor, I think Yale and Harvard would both disown him if he did something to ruin their credibility.

[UMSonOfMan7]

What evidence? People can write anything on the Net. I'd love to see some proof that homosexual unions were an official rite of the Roman Catholic Church...not some break-away liberal imitation church...show me the real Church, loyal to the real Pope, having these unions, and I will eat my words.

Well, I haven't exactly studied in detail the evidence that has been presented, but what makes you believe this came from anything other than an authentic RC church?

[bulldog98]

Of course not. As they say in my lovely new home, total rubbish.

Do you have anything to refute the evidence that has been presented?

What evidence? People can write anything on the Net. I'd love to see some proof that homosexual unions were an official rite of the Roman Catholic Church...not some break-away liberal imitation church...show me the real Church, loyal to the real Pope, having these unions, and I will eat my words.

Did you not see my post? Prof. Boswell's won awards for his writing; what's on the net are summaries of his publications.

Here's one of his books; here's another. I'm sure he must have a number of published articles as well. Who says it's some "break-away liberal imitation church?"

[m0dified]

What evidence? People can write anything on the Net. I'd love to see some proof that homosexual unions were an official rite of the Roman Catholic Church...not some break-away liberal imitation church...show me the real Church, loyal to the real Pope, having these unions, and I will eat my words.

Well, I haven't exactly studied in detail the evidence that has been presented, but what makes you believe this came from anything other than an authentic RC church?

After reading enough BS about my Church on the Net, I have developed a good sense of smell.

[UMSonOfMan7]

After reading enough BS about my Church on the Net, I have developed a good sense of smell.

So you are able to "sense" that is lies and there is no need to do any actual investigation?

[m0dified]

After reading enough BS about my Church on the Net, I have developed a good sense of smell.

So you are able to "sense" that is lies and there is no need to do any actual investigation?

When it is something as ridiculous as claiming the Church approved of same-sex marriages, yes, I don't need to "investigate."

Show me some official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents on this subject, then we will talk, ok?

[Ganesh]

Actually, UMSonOfMan7, I can smell that you have a point.

[HerFlamingLiberal]

How can we show you official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents when these are certainly kept in the archives of no return?

[m0dified]

How can we show you official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents when these are certainly kept in the archives of no return?

All of our documents are open to public viewing.

Here, try these...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/
http://www.catholic.net/[acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym]/Indices/subs/encyclicals.html
http://www.petersnet.net/

[Lonely_Road_of_Faith]

Hmmm,,,interesting.

[HerFlamingLiberal]

Actually, they aren't. There is a private section of the archives. You have to ask the Pope himself to see it, and I know of one woman recently who was given that honor.

[seebs]

When it is something as ridiculous as claiming the Church approved of same-sex marriages, yes, I don't need to "investigate."

Show me some official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents on this subject, then we will talk, ok?

The point here is that these *ARE* official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents from, say, the 8th century.

I think you should always investigate. After all, a lot of the things the Church teaches today would be just as "ridiculous" to people living in 500AD.

[m0dified]

When it is something as ridiculous as claiming the Church approved of same-sex marriages, yes, I don't need to "investigate."

Show me some official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents on this subject, then we will talk, ok?

The point here is that these *ARE* official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents from, say, the 8th century.

I think you should always investigate. After all, a lot of the things the Church teaches today would be just as "ridiculous" to people living in 500AD.

Show me some official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents that have gay marriages as rites.

Please.

[crossandflame]

The trouble is that the official documents certainly don't exist in official form anywhere simply because its been 10 years since that first article I posted was written, and surely in that time if they existed in an offical capacity, they would be public knowledge by now.

However, there are copies in unofficial areas, certainly, as indicated by the stories above. But, those will not be acceptable in a debate because their origin is shaky.

Catch-22.

[grant]

How can we show you official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents when these are certainly kept in the archives of no return?

All of our documents are open to public viewing.

Here, try these...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/
http://www.catholic.net/[acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym]/Indices/subs/encyclicals.html
http://www.petersnet.net/

Uhh, just so you know, those databases only reflect a fraction of the material housed by the Vatican. I mean, we're talking about handwritten scraps of animal skin from over 1,500 years ago... not really something they're going to be scanning in and translating from Latin, no matter what the contents are.

Heck, as a test search, I tried to find the "Decree of the Council of Pisa, 1409." It's available here, at the Fordham University database. But not at any of the sites above. At best, you find references to the Council of Pisa in writings from the popes of the 20th century (Leo XIII through John Paul II).

And Pisa was *important* to the church. A ceremony that was discontinued in the 1700s isn't, really. Except in a sort of embarrassing way....

And no, not all documents are open to the public even if you go there in person. Here are excerpts from the Vatican.va Library Regulations page:

3. Applications should specify: surname, first name(s), qualifications (among them there must be the completion of at least a four year program of studies such as a Bachelor’s Degree or Certificate of Higher Education or equivalent), profession, nationality, home address, address in Rome and purpose of research.

6. Undergraduate students usually are not admitted into the Archives.

9. Collections up to and including the pontificate of Benedict XV († January 22nd, 1922) are available for consultation, as well as the collections of Arch. Nunz. Monaco, Arch. Nunz. Berlino, Affari Eccl. Str., Berlino and Affari Eccl. Str., Germania, until 1939.

12. Only graphite-pencils may be used for writing notes. Ballpoint-pens, fountain-pens, felt-tip pens, etc., are strictly forbidden.

14. It is strictly forbidden to remove any material from the Study Room.

18. Scholars may not photograph the documents. Reproductions may be requested from the Archives’ Photographic Department.

(emphasis in the original)

So you can see, there are substantial obstacles to access even PARTS of the archives for "qualified" scholars.

[HerFlamingLiberal]

My point is made again, thank you Grant.

[grant]

By the way, if you go to the Fordham University database (it's a Jesuit school), you CAN find a record of the adelphopoiia rite. It's here, in Chs. 134 & 135 of the Life of St. Theodore of Sykeon.

Fordham also has this brief overview of Boswell's evidence:

Boswell was not able to show that any high church body gave approval to such a use of the rite, but was able to show, as most critics allow, that the rite was both fairly widespread [he had about 70 manuscripts], and that it probably was used by some same-sex couples to give some outward sign to their relationship. There are contrary indications about the entire ceremony. The late 18th century Orthodox law text known as the Pedalion or Rudder does indicate that the ceremony was [ab]used in this way. From a much earlier date, St. Theodore of Studium in his Reform Rules seems to relate the ceremony to marriage.

...Presented here [1.] are Boswell's translation of one of the various manuscripts he has, and [2.] a version from Jacob Goar's version of the rite, printed in the 17th century, translated by an independent scholar Nicholas Zymaris. Zymaris, who speaks both Greek and some Albanian, has made a number of verbal presentations, and Internet postings, in which he describes having witness such ceremonies in modern Albanian usage and which clearly indicate same sex unions.

Love the way the Jesuits slip in the "(ab)used" up there, and start out with the high church never giving the imprimatur, but then 'fessing up that the actual members of the church *did* use it pretty much like Boswell said they did.

[Ganesh]

Hooray for Grant's research-fu!

[grant]

The trouble is that the official documents certainly don't exist in official form anywhere simply because its been 10 years since that first article I posted was written, and surely in that time if they existed in an offical capacity, they would be public knowledge by now.

Well, it's public knowledge for the Jesuits, dude.

<ancient scholar voice>

Mother Church is LARGE.

Mother Church is OLD.

</ancient scholar voice>

[HerFlamingLiberal]

Grant.

Good work!!

[seebs]

Show me some official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents that have gay marriages as rites.

Please.

Wouldn't *all* Church documents before the first schism be official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents? If so, then we're done; we've got gay unions in around the 8th Century. Big deal.

[m0dified]

Boswell was not able to show that any high church body gave approval to such a use of the rite

<edited by [acronym="Cross+Flame"]C+F[/acronym]> HFL, you should have noticed the above. This was not an officially approved practice. I already mentioned the possibility of some group of people in the Church acting against Church policy...just as selling indulgences was done, but was not approved of officially, and thus, is not an infallible declaration of the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym].

So no, your point is not proven at all. The current Pope is stating what every previous Pope has stated since the time of St Peter.

And those of you that think the [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] used to approve of this practice are kidding yourselves.

[m0dified]

Show me some official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents that have gay marriages as rites.

Please.

Wouldn't *all* Church documents before the first schism be official [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] documents? If so, then we're done; we've got gay unions in around the 8th Century. Big deal.

The Church is very big. If some rogue group was doing something against official Church teachings, that does not mean that the Church approved of it, and that the modern [acronym="Roman Catholic Church"]RCC[/acronym] is contradicting that teaching, as some would like to imply.